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The Stern report raised the stakes over our commitment to carbon reduction. Is it now up to government or businesses themselves to further this agenda?

Peter Braithwaite In this regard we have a very weak global government, and business simply cannot wait for global government to show direction. It is up to companies themselves to take the lead if we are going to make a difference. The great challenge for business is "can we take this all on board?'

Chris Mills There is a role for legislation here. The voluntary actions of consumers and businesses can only go so far. The idea of a level playing field is an important one. These issues transcend national boundaries. It is almost as straightforward as the government taking a stand and legislating against unsustainable products and processes. 

Chris Thomas I am not convinced about regulation. I have spent a lot of time in India and China, where we have many factories, and any attempt to get these countries to legislate will simply not happen in our lifetime or in our children's lifetime. Eventually, they will come to the table. But legislation in the short term, and by short term here I mean 50 to 100 years, is simply not going to be common. Even in Europe there is no consensus. Look at the recent Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment directive for instance. How are we actually monitoring it country by country? It is right that we focus on India and China, but the European Union needs to show that it has got its own house in order too, and, generally, we are a long way off that. It is up to companies to self-regulate.

Mills What about more targets though? Governments, for instance, could be more specific on emissions targets year on year. It is so vital that emissions are reduced. How could voluntary regulation possibly work? 

Mark Weaver Ethics and sustainability are very closely linked in this whole debate, but you cannot legislate for ethics. If, for instance, you are making great pains to outsource ethically, say in the Far East, what are the sustainable issues? Such issues are now very closely tied with wider marketing objectives. In the marketing world it used to be that there were just trusted products, but the new word is trusted brands.

Pam Sissons We would prefer to go down the self-regulatory route. There are plenty of other ways to directly impact on this debate than through the regulatory route. Personally, I feel that corporate governance directives are already working well in this country and the UK is a leader in the field.

What have you directly done yourself as a business in this regard?

Sissons In the last five years we have concentrated on what we can do within the business in terms of reducing our electricity, gas and water demand as well as looking at health and safety issues. The areas we are really concentrating on today are efficiency in our cookers and fridges and how to reduce energy costs in the commercial kitchen.
We really need to be helping our customers reduce their fuel bills.

Thomas Agas are designed to be on day in, day out. Doesn't that create a problem for you here? How do you balance that with your sustainability and Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) policies?

Sissons Personally, I will have my Aga on and nothing else in the house. As such, my overall fuel usage will be less than most people who have the heating on. These are the sorts of things we advocate. People also forget that the Rangemaster is a big part of our business too, where this issue doesn't apply.

Chris Sallnow I wonder, in this whole context, whether it is more difficult for public companies, rather than private companies, to install CSR policies.

Sissons Personally, we have not come under a lot of pressure from the City. Our own specific interest in the subject dates back to the late 1990s, when a specific report from the Association of British Insurers (ABI), among others, was published on this subject.

Thomas Having worked in Hansons in the 1990s, and now in the private arena, I see this from both sides and yes, the public plc world is a very different world. Yet, I would argue there is far more scope to take certain actions to create things in the public arena.
The plc world tends to drive what private companies will do tomorrow.

Braithwaite It can be very difficult, though, for a plc to take a long view. In terms of sustainability, we need to think through the long-term consequences of decisions. That is one area where I get concerned about plcs.

Waddell We have talked a lot about consumer and customer pressure, but we have another pressure on us and that is the people we employ. There is now a huge pressure from people we recruit in our business to understand our position in terms of CSR. We are a global business, but in each place we operate we have to be part of the community. Birmingham, for instance, is on its way to becoming a majority non-white population. We have to be aware of that. People have to be proud of the company they work for, and we find graduates coming to us are now far more rounded and want to feel they are part of something. However, we do, I accept, have a more demanding workforce than most other businesses because of the qualifications we demand. There is a constant pressure there.

To what extent are client relationships driving this agenda too. Can businesses also afford to take a stand against clients who dont fit their agenda.

Thomas Some of our biggest customers are the likes of B&Q and Screwfix, who insist on ethical audits every six months. It is very important to them. We are obviously careful where we outsource in areas such as the Far East, and the situation has changed markedly in recent years, although the Far East still has a way to go. Let's not delude ourselves that China and India are up to European standards yet. It is no good thinking they are. In the long term they will catch up.

Sissons Yes, a lot of retail chains insist on you having various elements and standards in place.

Sallnow As a bank we are branded the ethical bank and are prepared to turn business away in areas such as armaments, cosmetics industry testing animals, tobacco or oppressive regimes where relevant. It does, at times, pose very difficult questions, such as if a customer makes goods for various different industries, but, since introducing this back in 1992, we can definitely say it has worked for our business.

Paul Scott I would be interested to know what people think about carbon offsetting. Is it just a cop out? Could it simply be seen as an easy way of satisfying the sustainable question? We find there are clients who are very interested in all this, but there are probably more who are still less interested. In terms of regulations, I think there is a place for more too. From a practical point of view I think they are a good thing, as they set standards and allow everyone to work to them. Take the example of the Greater London Authority, which has defined standards and requirements in areas such as renewable energy sources. Why could that not happen elsewhere?

Thomas In your industry, the property world, you already have Part L regulations designed to improve the energy efficiency of all buildings, so you are already down this path. But when you look at something like Part P, which covers the design and testing of electrical systems, there is no monitoring going on. This is my great fear with more regulations. How are you going to enforce them?

Braithwaite Going back to Paul's point about carbon trading, a big problem is that it does not reduce the actual amount of carbon produced. The construction industry is one of the few sectors that wants legislation because it is so fragmented.

Weaver The downside is always the people who dodge regulations. I believe there is a huge requirement for educating clients in this field. We find clients actually find it extremely difficult to find out about how to be ethical.

Ian Smith We have just had a £35m building designed for us.
Of the five architects who we brought in, only one looked at things from the ethical viewpoint. We ended up actually giving them the job, but largely because of other reasons.

Alan Shrimpton Fair trade is becoming very important to people now. We are seeing a real sea change in consumer behaviour.

Thomas When it boils down to it, there are two main things we, the consumer, can do in this debate. We can look at the home we live in and how we act, and we can look at transport and how we act. There is very little else we can do.

Braithwaite Thinking about this subject makes me think about who is really driving consumer choice today. It's the marketing people. A lot of consumer choice is being driven by big corporates.

Shrimpton That's not always true. Look at the impact that Jamie Oliver has had with school meals.

Waddell Large companies know this is an extremely important agenda now. It is easy for them to measure it. Equally, it is encouraging to come across small family businesses who sometimes make it their own personal mission to embrace this debate too. You can really see small businesses trying to do their bit.

Smith This is all very well, but for many smaller companies, particularly in the manufacturing sector, which interest me, it is all about survival, never mind CSR policies. Directors of these companies will often take the view that we cannot afford this today because we don't know if we are going to be here tomorrow.

Thomas You raise an interesting point. My business has been through massive change in the last few years, most notably in terms of slashing our UK workforce, closing almost all our UK factories, and relocating production abroad. During this period, just surviving as a business was top of the agenda. As such, five years ago, sustainable issues were not high on my agenda at all. But today they are because we have got the business back into a good financial position and I can afford to embrace them.

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